Odyssey Folks...
I need to get some climb rates to check for go-around procedures that will be sufficient and safe. The first half of the dirt strip runway is 1,000 feet with only 17 feet of uphill slope. The second 1,000 feet has a 5% slope or 50 feet of climb required. This is no problem.
The problem is a set of power lines to clear at the end of the second half of the runway. This means that from mid-field, the Odyssey needs to climb more than 90 feet. In a few months the power lines will be relocated, but that is a long wait. I need to be safe or wait.
Assuming calm winds, approx. 1,000 lbs gross weight, 26' wing -- if I go full throttle and shift from full flaps to one notch up, pick up the airspeed from 60 to 65mph and then go to zero flaps...how many feet can I climb in 10 seconds? My calculations show 85 to 115 feet of climb. Which is too tight. Comments and suggestions welcome. Pilots only please.
Thanks RMM
---In Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, <SWeidemann@...> wrote :
Odyssey Folks,
I just talked to the instructor who will be checking me out in the HKS Odyssey.
What he wants me to provide for him is:
-Best Angle of Climb Speed
-Best Rate of Climb Speed
-Best Glide Speed (for when the engine quits...and with him on board it will)
Anyone?
Thanks much,
Skot
Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
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rmm_guam
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Odyssey Folks...
(Reposted as a new topic.)
I need to get some climb rates to check for go-around procedures that will be sufficient and safe. The first half of the dirt strip runway is 1,000 feet with only 17 feet of uphill slope. The second 1,000 feet has a 5% slope or 50 feet of climb required. This is no problem.
The problem is a set of power lines to clear at the end of the second half of the runway. This means that from mid-field, the Odyssey needs to climb more than 90 feet. In a few months the power lines will be relocated, but that is a long wait. I need to be safe or wait.
Assuming calm winds, approx. 1,000 lbs gross weight, 26' wing -- if I go full throttle and shift from full flaps to one notch up, pick up the airspeed from 60 to 65mph and then go to zero flaps...how many feet can I climb in 10 seconds? My calculations show 85 to 115 feet of climb. Which is too tight. Comments and suggestions welcome. Pilots only please.
Thanks RMM
(Reposted as a new topic.)
I need to get some climb rates to check for go-around procedures that will be sufficient and safe. The first half of the dirt strip runway is 1,000 feet with only 17 feet of uphill slope. The second 1,000 feet has a 5% slope or 50 feet of climb required. This is no problem.
The problem is a set of power lines to clear at the end of the second half of the runway. This means that from mid-field, the Odyssey needs to climb more than 90 feet. In a few months the power lines will be relocated, but that is a long wait. I need to be safe or wait.
Assuming calm winds, approx. 1,000 lbs gross weight, 26' wing -- if I go full throttle and shift from full flaps to one notch up, pick up the airspeed from 60 to 65mph and then go to zero flaps...how many feet can I climb in 10 seconds? My calculations show 85 to 115 feet of climb. Which is too tight. Comments and suggestions welcome. Pilots only please.
Thanks RMM
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blaswichk
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
I’m not an Odyssey pilot, but I am a Earthstar pilot flying the Gull 2000 which might have similar wing loading on my 20’ wing and 700 lbs gross at take-off. I think that using full flaps at the start of the take-off roll would cost you acceleration speed. With 2000’ of runway, I would just use the first or second notch which will give you the added lift you need without a lot of drag. Retract only when you can see above the power lines. Full flaps really increases the sink rate, and should mostly be used to shorten the landing.
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dickoreilly
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Maybe John Karevoll will lend his expertise as an Odyssey pilot flying two-up. My own experience in the Thunder Gull JT2 was that adding a passenger made the ground roll about twice as long, probably 600-700 feet on a dirt strip at 3220 ft. agl and usually 4,500-5,500 ft density altitude. 24' ft wing (26' effective due to downward curl of wing tips). I found one notch of flaps was best for takeoffs.
I would definitely suggest that he begin testing with low fuel quantity and solo. Attempting a first takeoff on the described runway/obstacles with passenger and full fuel would be highly irresponsible. If this is going to be what amounts to a ferry flight to another airport where plane would be based, a good way to do that is a solo, low fuel flight to a nearby paved airport with longer, level runway. Fill the tank there and add the passenger and takeoff for the new airport safely with plenty of margin.
Dick O'Reilly
(John, check the group site for the original post. It is not copied here.)
I would definitely suggest that he begin testing with low fuel quantity and solo. Attempting a first takeoff on the described runway/obstacles with passenger and full fuel would be highly irresponsible. If this is going to be what amounts to a ferry flight to another airport where plane would be based, a good way to do that is a solo, low fuel flight to a nearby paved airport with longer, level runway. Fill the tank there and add the passenger and takeoff for the new airport safely with plenty of margin.
Dick O'Reilly
(John, check the group site for the original post. It is not copied here.)
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moushegiancarl
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
I would suggest going to another field and practice short field take offs
You will accelerate more quickly if your controls are in the neutral position and just use one
notch of flaps. When you reach rotational speed ease the stick back and upon reaching safe altitude
retract the flaps.
If your still too close for comfort try engaging one notch at rotational speed and retracting at altitude. Check tire pressure. I run my 4-ply at @ 20 psi for extra shock absorption. You may want to try
30psi for less rolling resistance.
Carl with JT2 Thundergull
You will accelerate more quickly if your controls are in the neutral position and just use one
notch of flaps. When you reach rotational speed ease the stick back and upon reaching safe altitude
retract the flaps.
If your still too close for comfort try engaging one notch at rotational speed and retracting at altitude. Check tire pressure. I run my 4-ply at @ 20 psi for extra shock absorption. You may want to try
30psi for less rolling resistance.
Carl with JT2 Thundergull
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dickoreilly
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Now I see that you apparently in Guam, so there may not be a nearby alternate airport. I don't understand the 1000 lb weight. An Odyssey with pilot only should weigh much less than that, even with full fuel. I also don't think you can base any of your assumptions on the experiences of anyone else in another Odyssey. I don't believe there are any fully instrumented, calibrated performance figures for any Odyssey. I also doubt there are any fully identical Odysseys out there.
What other planes fly off that runway? For instance, does anyone fly out of there with two people in a Cessna 150 or 152, or with two people in a Cherokee 140. The Odyssey will easily lift off sooner and out climb those airplanes. On the other hand, if a two-place Quicksilver with Rotax 582 water-cooled engine struggles to clear the wires with just one person aboard, you should wait until the power lines are relocated.
The FAA has a publication describing the procedure for flight testing a newly-built experimental aircraft -- http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 20aircraft http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 20aircraft
The procedures work equally well for a pilot new to an aircraft, whether amateur-built, amateur-assembled, amateur-completed or factory built.
You can't answer your question with a calculator and no performance information you receive here or elsewhere is useful for your purpose. Your runway is long enough for you to practice lifting off a foot or two and immediately setting it back down. I think that will show you that one notch of flaps gets you off the ground in the shortest distance.
When you do make the real flight, the really critcal thing is to get your airspeed to best rate of climb (65 in the JT2, and you should have the number for the Odyssey). Allowing speed to decay while trying to increase climb is guaranteed deadly. And letting airspeed increase above best climb reduces your climb rate, so don't let that happen either until you are beyond the power lines.
I would practice with only three or four gallons of fuel in the tank and the plane stripped of anything you can easily remove, including the second seat. The advice to raise tire pressure to 20 lbs is good.
You don't really know what the airplane weighs unless you weigh it yourself. You need three identical scales each set to zero, one under each wheel with the plane in level flight attitude. On my JT2, which rests on the mains and tailwheel with nose wheel elevated, that required stacking wood frames under the tailwheel scale to get the window sills in level position, which is level flight attitude on the JT2.
Keep us posted with your progress.
Dick O'Reilly
What other planes fly off that runway? For instance, does anyone fly out of there with two people in a Cessna 150 or 152, or with two people in a Cherokee 140. The Odyssey will easily lift off sooner and out climb those airplanes. On the other hand, if a two-place Quicksilver with Rotax 582 water-cooled engine struggles to clear the wires with just one person aboard, you should wait until the power lines are relocated.
The FAA has a publication describing the procedure for flight testing a newly-built experimental aircraft -- http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 20aircraft http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 20aircraft
The procedures work equally well for a pilot new to an aircraft, whether amateur-built, amateur-assembled, amateur-completed or factory built.
You can't answer your question with a calculator and no performance information you receive here or elsewhere is useful for your purpose. Your runway is long enough for you to practice lifting off a foot or two and immediately setting it back down. I think that will show you that one notch of flaps gets you off the ground in the shortest distance.
When you do make the real flight, the really critcal thing is to get your airspeed to best rate of climb (65 in the JT2, and you should have the number for the Odyssey). Allowing speed to decay while trying to increase climb is guaranteed deadly. And letting airspeed increase above best climb reduces your climb rate, so don't let that happen either until you are beyond the power lines.
I would practice with only three or four gallons of fuel in the tank and the plane stripped of anything you can easily remove, including the second seat. The advice to raise tire pressure to 20 lbs is good.
You don't really know what the airplane weighs unless you weigh it yourself. You need three identical scales each set to zero, one under each wheel with the plane in level flight attitude. On my JT2, which rests on the mains and tailwheel with nose wheel elevated, that required stacking wood frames under the tailwheel scale to get the window sills in level position, which is level flight attitude on the JT2.
Keep us posted with your progress.
Dick O'Reilly
-
rmm_guam
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Thanks everyone. Well considered and comprehensive responses. Clarifications to address several points mentioned in your responses are appropriate.
There is no alternative field at present, unfortunately. Another private strip is being built, but I am unsure of its availability for me. Trailering the Odyssey wing requires a good rig. And I don't really wish to focus time there right now.
The PGUM airport has a $1million per seat liability insurance requirement to operate there. Guam lacks any E-AB insurance provider and in any case the premiums even for just liability would be prohibitive. I don't have any huge assets and at 63 years, decided to fly without liability insurance. Another owner who is building a FAR 103 Aventura has made the same choice. There are a couple of powered gliders here. All other small aircraft are fully certificated and airport operated. Basically all 172's owned by the flight schools here.
This airstrip is on some friends private property. They plan to fly a Cessna 172 and a Cessna Skymaster from this field. One of my CFI's has landed on this field in a Cessna 172 a few times. I sat back seat on one landing and takeoff. No other aircraft has flown in and out so far. Landing on this field presents some tough crosswind / quartering tailwind conditions - hence the calm air requirement for now. The property owners are very much involved with my decisions and we discuss all aspects of flight operation. Only with their approval and with an indemnity agreement signed, will we begin to fly here. So I am very much focused on safety.
Several responses addressed take-off issues. Going downhill with 2,000 feet, two on board for take off is no problem. Normal landings likewise. The concern, as put to me by my CFI, is the inevitable go-around when a landing needs to be rejected? That is where the concern for climb arises. I do have a couple of solo test pilots standing by, so it is not that we have to have two on board. But, the concern still arises, as we do want to fly with two on board. This is why I am using 1,000 pounds gross weight in this case.
My aircraft was built at Mark's factory with his constant supervision and 49% labor. With only 70 hours since new in 2008, with a GRT EFIS glass panel, xpnder, radio, 2nd air speed guage, nav lights, landing lights, etc.....this is a solid airplane. At completion of the second phase flight testing at 980 pounds, Vy was 70, Vso was 37, Vx was not listed. So I have assumed a Vx of 60. Powered by an HKS 700E and 3 blade Kiev Prop.
I will take all the suggestions given so far under very careful consideration.
It should be, though, that another Odyssey should deliver almost the same performance, if the weight, engine, and weather remain about the same. Hence the specific parameters in my initial posting.
Any further thoughts on Go-Around climb gradient?? My conclusion is that the power lines have to be moved. Do you agree or is the margin for climb on go-around more than sufficient in your opinion?? If anyone can contact John Karevoll, that would be great. Skot W -- your thoughts on this go-around question??
Thanks and best regards. Your real-world thoughts and advice as Earthstar aircraft pilots are greatly appreciated.
RMM
---In Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, <dickoreilly@...> wrote :
Now I see that you apparently in Guam, so there may not be a nearby alternate airport. I don't understand the 1000 lb weight. An Odyssey with pilot only should weigh much less than that, even with full fuel. I also don't think you can base any of your assumptions on the experiences of anyone else in another Odyssey. I don't believe there are any fully instrumented, calibrated performance figures for any Odyssey. I also doubt there are any fully identical Odysseys out there.
What other planes fly off that runway? For instance, does anyone fly out of there with two people in a Cessna 150 or 152, or with two people in a Cherokee 140. The Odyssey will easily lift off sooner and out climb those airplanes. On the other hand, if a two-place Quicksilver with Rotax 582 water-cooled engine struggles to clear the wires with just one person aboard, you should wait until the power lines are relocated.
The FAA has a publication describing the procedure for flight testing a newly-built experimental aircraft -- http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 20aircraft http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 20aircraft
The procedures work equally well for a pilot new to an aircraft, whether amateur-built, amateur-assembled, amateur-completed or factory built.
You can't answer your question with a calculator and no performance information you receive here or elsewhere is useful for your purpose. Your runway is long enough for you to practice lifting off a foot or two and immediately setting it back down. I think that will show you that one notch of flaps gets you off the ground in the shortest distance.
When you do make the real flight, the really critcal thing is to get your airspeed to best rate of climb (65 in the JT2, and you should have the number for the Odyssey). Allowing speed to decay while trying to increase climb is guaranteed deadly. And letting airspeed increase above best climb reduces your climb rate, so don't let that happen either until you are beyond the power lines.
I would practice with only three or four gallons of fuel in the tank and the plane stripped of anything you can easily remove, including the second seat. The advice to raise tire pressure to 20 lbs is good.
You don't really know what the airplane weighs unless you weigh it yourself. You need three identical scales each set to zero, one under each wheel with the plane in level flight attitude. On my JT2, which rests on the mains and tailwheel with nose wheel elevated, that required stacking wood frames under the tailwheel scale to get the window sills in level position, which is level flight attitude on the JT2.
Keep us posted with your progress.
Dick O'Reilly
There is no alternative field at present, unfortunately. Another private strip is being built, but I am unsure of its availability for me. Trailering the Odyssey wing requires a good rig. And I don't really wish to focus time there right now.
The PGUM airport has a $1million per seat liability insurance requirement to operate there. Guam lacks any E-AB insurance provider and in any case the premiums even for just liability would be prohibitive. I don't have any huge assets and at 63 years, decided to fly without liability insurance. Another owner who is building a FAR 103 Aventura has made the same choice. There are a couple of powered gliders here. All other small aircraft are fully certificated and airport operated. Basically all 172's owned by the flight schools here.
This airstrip is on some friends private property. They plan to fly a Cessna 172 and a Cessna Skymaster from this field. One of my CFI's has landed on this field in a Cessna 172 a few times. I sat back seat on one landing and takeoff. No other aircraft has flown in and out so far. Landing on this field presents some tough crosswind / quartering tailwind conditions - hence the calm air requirement for now. The property owners are very much involved with my decisions and we discuss all aspects of flight operation. Only with their approval and with an indemnity agreement signed, will we begin to fly here. So I am very much focused on safety.
Several responses addressed take-off issues. Going downhill with 2,000 feet, two on board for take off is no problem. Normal landings likewise. The concern, as put to me by my CFI, is the inevitable go-around when a landing needs to be rejected? That is where the concern for climb arises. I do have a couple of solo test pilots standing by, so it is not that we have to have two on board. But, the concern still arises, as we do want to fly with two on board. This is why I am using 1,000 pounds gross weight in this case.
My aircraft was built at Mark's factory with his constant supervision and 49% labor. With only 70 hours since new in 2008, with a GRT EFIS glass panel, xpnder, radio, 2nd air speed guage, nav lights, landing lights, etc.....this is a solid airplane. At completion of the second phase flight testing at 980 pounds, Vy was 70, Vso was 37, Vx was not listed. So I have assumed a Vx of 60. Powered by an HKS 700E and 3 blade Kiev Prop.
I will take all the suggestions given so far under very careful consideration.
It should be, though, that another Odyssey should deliver almost the same performance, if the weight, engine, and weather remain about the same. Hence the specific parameters in my initial posting.
Any further thoughts on Go-Around climb gradient?? My conclusion is that the power lines have to be moved. Do you agree or is the margin for climb on go-around more than sufficient in your opinion?? If anyone can contact John Karevoll, that would be great. Skot W -- your thoughts on this go-around question??
Thanks and best regards. Your real-world thoughts and advice as Earthstar aircraft pilots are greatly appreciated.
RMM
---In Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, <dickoreilly@...> wrote :
Now I see that you apparently in Guam, so there may not be a nearby alternate airport. I don't understand the 1000 lb weight. An Odyssey with pilot only should weigh much less than that, even with full fuel. I also don't think you can base any of your assumptions on the experiences of anyone else in another Odyssey. I don't believe there are any fully instrumented, calibrated performance figures for any Odyssey. I also doubt there are any fully identical Odysseys out there.
What other planes fly off that runway? For instance, does anyone fly out of there with two people in a Cessna 150 or 152, or with two people in a Cherokee 140. The Odyssey will easily lift off sooner and out climb those airplanes. On the other hand, if a two-place Quicksilver with Rotax 582 water-cooled engine struggles to clear the wires with just one person aboard, you should wait until the power lines are relocated.
The FAA has a publication describing the procedure for flight testing a newly-built experimental aircraft -- http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 20aircraft http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 20aircraft
The procedures work equally well for a pilot new to an aircraft, whether amateur-built, amateur-assembled, amateur-completed or factory built.
You can't answer your question with a calculator and no performance information you receive here or elsewhere is useful for your purpose. Your runway is long enough for you to practice lifting off a foot or two and immediately setting it back down. I think that will show you that one notch of flaps gets you off the ground in the shortest distance.
When you do make the real flight, the really critcal thing is to get your airspeed to best rate of climb (65 in the JT2, and you should have the number for the Odyssey). Allowing speed to decay while trying to increase climb is guaranteed deadly. And letting airspeed increase above best climb reduces your climb rate, so don't let that happen either until you are beyond the power lines.
I would practice with only three or four gallons of fuel in the tank and the plane stripped of anything you can easily remove, including the second seat. The advice to raise tire pressure to 20 lbs is good.
You don't really know what the airplane weighs unless you weigh it yourself. You need three identical scales each set to zero, one under each wheel with the plane in level flight attitude. On my JT2, which rests on the mains and tailwheel with nose wheel elevated, that required stacking wood frames under the tailwheel scale to get the window sills in level position, which is level flight attitude on the JT2.
Keep us posted with your progress.
Dick O'Reilly
-
rmm_guam
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Additional Clarification..
The power lines are at the highest end of the runway and are an issue when landing, not on takeoff.
This is why I am addressing Go-Around Procedures, not normal landings or takeoffs.
Takeoff gives 2,000 feet of downhill grade into prevailing winds with maybe a 20' tree line to climb over. Landing has the uphill grade. First 1,000 feet only 17 feet of uphill slope, then the second 1,000 feet with 50 feet of uphill slope. THEN...at the runway end on landing....the power lines sit 40' in the air at about 2,100 feet. Hence, 90 feet of climb from mid-field for a rejected landing / go around procedure.
For safety purposes, I need to consider 1,000 pounds gross weight. My CFI prefers using MTOW but that is unlikely in real flying (my MTOW is 1,250). The second phase flight test showed 980 lbs gross weight, Vy of 70mph. I assume Vx of 60mph. HKS 700E / 26' Heavy Duty Wing.
So, regarding Go-Around Procedures, not normal landings or takeoffs.
Your further advice and thoughts, gentlemen?
Thanks and Happy Easter
RMM
The power lines are at the highest end of the runway and are an issue when landing, not on takeoff.
This is why I am addressing Go-Around Procedures, not normal landings or takeoffs.
Takeoff gives 2,000 feet of downhill grade into prevailing winds with maybe a 20' tree line to climb over. Landing has the uphill grade. First 1,000 feet only 17 feet of uphill slope, then the second 1,000 feet with 50 feet of uphill slope. THEN...at the runway end on landing....the power lines sit 40' in the air at about 2,100 feet. Hence, 90 feet of climb from mid-field for a rejected landing / go around procedure.
For safety purposes, I need to consider 1,000 pounds gross weight. My CFI prefers using MTOW but that is unlikely in real flying (my MTOW is 1,250). The second phase flight test showed 980 lbs gross weight, Vy of 70mph. I assume Vx of 60mph. HKS 700E / 26' Heavy Duty Wing.
So, regarding Go-Around Procedures, not normal landings or takeoffs.
Your further advice and thoughts, gentlemen?
Thanks and Happy Easter
RMM
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k1w1art
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Very soon you want be able to fly in the US for all these things like liability Insurance's etc. And you still call it the land of the free??? Come fly in NZ
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rileywinglowe
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Could you go under the power lines?