Earthstar Forums

Weight in an airplane is the enemy.
The Boeing 737-400would aircraft I used to work on saved 1000lbs on the interior by making a lot of the panels out of honeycomb Kevlar. They also use titanium screws all over the jet. When you pick up a titanium screw it like the weight of an aluminum screw yet they are extremely tough. The Airlines also put just enough fuel to get to the destination + legal IFR reserve and no more. The plane flys more efficiently and makes more money for the airlines.


Cessna used to just put a trim strip on their aircraft in the 40s and 50s to save money and weight.
Don Sheldon who used to fly he Cessna 180 up and land on a glacier on Mt. McKinley, he always ordered his airplanes from Cessna with NO paint. He said it saved 30-40# on the airplane and every pound matters when landing up on Mt. Mckiney at very high altitudes.


Years ago I experimented with carbon graphite fiber making floor boards and seat back rest for a friends PA-18 Super Cub. We even made tail skis out of Carbon Fibre, very light and extremely strong.That tail ski on that super cub in Alaska has over 11,000 on it now and it still looks like new. It has had a few dozen skags replaces but the ski bottom just like new. , the only problem is the cost is prohibitive to use that carbon fibre. I was using scraps that were out of date for use on the Boeing jets. . And you don't want slivers in your hand and you do not want to breath the burning fumes from carbon fibre. Other than that, it is great.


Titan Tornados use large engines, which in turn burn more fuel(more weight) and so I see them loaded down with all kinds of radios and stuff all being carried by a 20ft wing! So it is bound to affect the handling quantities.
When Mark B. says built it light and keep it light he is correct and some day when you sell it, it will probably outperform all the other ones that all the stuff on them that they really don't need to begin with.Its human nature to add stuff to your plane but most of it you don't need.


Just my opinion,

Agreed. I got 50 lbs out of my airplane by taking everything back to what
Mark recommends. Makes a big difference. Now, if I can lose some
weight...I'll have a 60 hp flying banshee. ;)

About the Titan Tornados, the ones with the bigger engines are usually the II model which has a 24' wing like the JT2. I recently flew with a Titan Tornado I with a 503 and 20' wing. The plane was like a tank, with the rudder and stabilator completely metalized, which required 22 lbs of lead in the nose to be within weight and balance, and an empty weight of 518 lbs. we we're cruising at about 95 mph and I said let's go to full throttle. The Blue Streak  (Gull 2000/503) shot away like shifting into overdrive. Mark makes great planes, don't mess with them.
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Hi Kess,

Please elaborate further on your thundergull's specs, the quickest one among all gulls. like empty weight without gas, total weight at takeoff, propeller, with or without the reserve chute, with or without the wheelpants, with or without the cowling, (top and cruise) speeds at which rpms, etc.

When the BRS was removed, you had to balance ~23# of nose weight with a larger battery & some lead weight? it actually sounds quite close to the tornado noseweight factoid, maybe there's something more to the comparison. overall it's kinda obvious to state, gulls are in a class of their own.

what do you think of these wheelpants? unsure i brought it to your notice few yrs back, my mailbox does show i mailed it to Mark; portion of mail below.

2 cents,
Rahul

(Prof Paulo Iscold may be of help for a better wheel pant design. He has been working on (speed record holding) single engine planes for well over a decade now. CEA-308, 309 & 311 (anaquim, pic below); since these are proprietary university projects, maybe they'll share. Worth an ask..
iscold@demec.ufmg.br). {they just might at a nominal fee or even free if asked nicely}

The Blue Streak gained most of it's speed increase by closing up the gap between the wing and the fuselage (7 mph), wheel pants (3mph), engine cowling (0 mph). It now weighs about 456 lbs empty, 68" Ivo 3 blade prop with in-flight adjust. 100-110 mph cruise at 5300-5400 rpm. Wide open at about 6300 rpm is 120 mph +. Your right about the battery, it went heavier which is good for my electric toys, and a few more lbs in the nose for w & b. The fiberglass very smooth fuselage helps the Gull 2000 cruise faster too. Titan needs to do this and modernize their planes
Oh, and the wheel pants shown would be expensive. I bought mine from Aircraft Spruce and modified them for the Gull, and they were only about $110 each.

and how much payload does it carry, including pilot?
actually, even 456# sounds heavy compared to specs that state 248#, with a gross of 550# (i understand it was written to meet the 254# ultralight rule). though thats maybe with a lighter engine without brs. how much does the streak weigh in parts? like original frame sans engine, electronics, engine, carpetting&firewall or something. makes me wonder how much an odyssey weighs?
(ref. http://www.thundergull.com/specifications.htm)

long ago, it was a tornado test flight video that actually scared me, experienced pilot's pal on the ground soberly termed it a flying coffee. just hope they're not actually scaring the pilots who already one that much, with a few thousand in air so far.

fine, i'll take your word for those pants to be expensive. even with experience (which you have more of), i still do think they won't be that expensive, coming from a brazilian univ., with the prof&team hardly look they did all that computer fluid dynamics study for dollars. (did reach 223mph on 80hp)

now tell me again, isn't an aluminum skin lighter than a fiberglass pod shell? would be easier to build? i get it that the fiberglass makes the gulls look more swanny, and then mirror aluminum looks quite nice too

If I put 34ö long blades on my 503 Gull they will just touch the boom. My engine mount is a flat bar type mount, maybe yours is different???? I currently have a 3 blade warp drive prop, pitch 16 degree, each lade 32ö long =64ö diameter.

I called IVO and put in an order for a 3 lade IVO IFA ultralight prop. Ron at IVO sorta had a fit and said it would be a few months before I could get one and they they donÆt work well on Rotax 503 with a ôCö gear box and 3 to 1 ratio. I told them I know of two different guys who run them on Gull 2000s and they keep an eye on the prop for movement. IVO said sometime it works sometimes it donÆt, they donÆt like the Idea of installing one. I said look, it is an experimental airplane, I want one, and if the blades show movement, I will remove it from service and use something differentàAnyway not sure if they will send me one or not. They tried to convince me the medium prop is the way to go but I said it is too heavyà
I have the IFA hub, 3 blades and knurled plates and adapter for the Rotax for a medium IVO prop but it is pretty heavy so will wait for the ultralight 3 blade prop. It has 68ö diameter and was on a HKS 700 when I bought it and the engine.

Anyway, the Gull 2000 with the 20 ft wing is about ready to fly. I need to take it to the airport and install the wing is all. I went thru everything on it and replaced fuel lines, battery, some wiring, fuel filters, the tires and wheels and brakes only have 2 yrs and 30 hours and look new still. Guess Ill fly it with the warp drive until I get the IFA IVO if they send it to meà

Mark in Davenport

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Looking at your photos of the blue streak it looks like you went to some work to fair in the area on each side of the engine and to also have some structure to attach the lower wing fairing to. This is good because it fairs and smooths the airflow into the prop disc and this should make the prop work more efficiently. Anything in front of the prop that disturbs the airflow in the the disc, you can hear it, and it causes a loss of thrust because of the turbulent flow into the prop disc, it causes vibrations as well.

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