Earthstar Forums

It seems plausible. Maybe ok in an open framed ultralight where leaking is
easily detected and the fuel can't get trapped inside any cavities. 
 Dick O'Reilly




________________________________
From: Fred <gayford@golden.net>
To: Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 7:26:12 PM
Subject: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Re: Video of precautionary landing at El Mirage

 
I was only half kidding.
I thought a sight tube would be a good idea.
I figured there must be a way to make a liquid tight fitting in the lower part
of the tank.
I was looking at the bottom of a tank on a ultralight at the field the other day
and looked at the fittings. It was a press fit rubber like grommet with a ridge
on the tube inserted into it which expanded the grommet to make the seal. The
tank had three of them.
There must be a way. What do you think?
Fred

--- In Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, Richard OReilly <dickoreilly@...>
wrote:
>
> Kess,
>
> I think Fred is writing with tongue far inside his cheek and really means "no
> way". I certainly do. At least ask Mark before you drill.
>
> As for the Facet, mine is mounted at the bottom of the fuel compartment
>opening
>
> in my JT2, so it has to suck fuel out through the top of the tank, down to its

> position 12-15 inches lower and then push it up to the carbs.  So how well
>does
>
> it do that? Superbly. And I watched that first hand last week as I used the
> Facet to pump the last four gallons out of my tank into a Mr. Funnel to a 5
> gallon can so I could check for water in the fuel and see how far down the tank
>
> would actually empty. No water and only about 1/4 inch visible fuel remained.
>
> It pumped at a rate of about a pint or two a minute I'm guessing.
>
> So I think you should leave it alone.
>
> Check out this article: www.challengers101.com/FuelSys.html 
> You need to look at the Google cached version because the original is gone. It

> plainly states there is no reliable way to seal an outlet in the bottom of a
> plastic tank. It's also got a lot of other good info about fuel systems on
> ultralights.
> Dick O'Reilly
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Fred <gayford@...>
> To: Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 10:02:36 AM
> Subject: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Re: Video of precautionary landing at El Mirage
>
>  
> Kess
> Get your drill out and go for it.
> I would like to see how you make out.
> I have no idea how you would make a gas tight fitting in the tank.
> A sight tube would save buying a camera and such. A mirror would be all that
>you
>
> need.
> I am sure your Titan buddies would be happy to drill a whole in your tanks.
> Fred
>
> --- In Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "kessb" <kessb@> wrote:
> >
> > Dick,
> >
> > My plane was plumbed with the Facet in parallel with the engine pulse pump
> >also, but when I replaced all of the aged tubing I chose to re-plumb in
>series.
>
> >My thought was that the two pumps are pushing against each others check valve,
>
> >and if either fails, the engine will quit as there is no back up. At least in

> >series, there is no way to lose pressure. I know some may dispute this and
> >continue to plumb in parallel, and that's their choice. I also have a problem

> >with the Facet pump being elevated, and not at the very bottom of the tank
> >level, as that would require a bottom hole in my precious 10 gallon
>polyethelyne
>
> >tank. Maybe I should get over that and put a hole in it, that way I could also
>
> >build the fuel level gage using tubing.
> >
> > kb
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Richard OReilly
> > To: Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Video of precautionary landing at El
Mirage
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kess and Alan,
> >
> > Engine was working hard and had for just over an hour. We were at gross, 5500
>
> >ft out and 6500 ft back, cruising at 85-95 mph. But it was cool, about 60
> >degrees F.
> >
> > No internal damage seen through the exhaust port. In fact, engine looks new,
>no
>
> >carbon.
> >
> >
> > No sign of wiring problems for mags.
> >
> > I am running an HAC system, which I calibrated last fall when I rebuilt carbs
>
> >with new floats, float valves, and new needles and jets per recommendations on
>
> >Green Sky website. Went from 8L2 needles, top groove, 2.74 needle jet and 158

> >main jet to 11K2 needle, second groove, 2.70 needle jet and 185 main jet. Runs
>
> >great and plug colors are spot on.
> >
> > I also replaced all the fuel lines at that time, moved the Facet electric
>pump
>
> >to inside the rear compartment (it was facing into the passenger seat !!!) and
>
> >configured as a parallel system with fuel line from tank split with one side
> >going straight to Mikuni and other side to the Facet and then Tee'd into each

> >carb fuel line coming out of the Mikuni. It's ugly. It has tiny bubbles. I
>used
>
> >small worm gear hose clamps inside the fuel tank compartment and safety wire
> >2-turns clamps outside at all the connections.
> >
> >
> > Mark told me how to check connectors for flaws that can cause air leaks and
>he
>
> >thinks there should be no bubbles in the system.
> >
> >
> > New plan is to change the fuel line system to a simply Series system with a
> >single line that comes from tank through a filter to the Facet pump, then to
>the
>
> >Mikuni and then to the carbs. I used a small clear plastic fuel filter with a

> >brass-colored filter element inside, from Aircraft Spruce. (I'm lucky enough
>to
>
> >be able to shop at the counter at Aircraft Spruce, where the staff is very
> >helpful to deal with.)
> >
> > (If I had thought to turn on the electric fuel pump when incident happened,
>my
>
> >parallel system could have been put into operation and would have told me
> >whether fuel starvation was the cause. However, I have read so much about
> >seizures and we've had several recently at my airport that my focus was
> >completely on whether my engine was seizing. You can be that pump on will be
>the
>
> >first action in any future in-flight engine problem)
> >
> > I'm also going to replace the plunger primer, which is in the passenger
> >compartment at the sill at front edge of door where I can reach behind me to
> >operate it. (It's possible that the passenger movements may have raised the
> >plunger slightly during that flight.) One of the guys at my airport theorizes

> >that the carbs could have drawn fuel through the primer system in little
>spurts
>
> >which caused the power losses. I believe the plunger is worn because lately
>it's
>
> >taking me 8-10 pumps to prime the engine for immediate start.
> >
> > But the bottom line is that right now there is no smoking gun. I think I'm
> >faced with tweaks like these and then a lot of test flying to prove to myself

> >that the plane is reliable.
> >
> > Dick O'Reilly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > From: kessb <kessb@>
> > To: Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 11:04:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Video of precautionary landing at El
Mirage
> >
> >
> >
> > Dick,
> >
> > I viewed the video and heard what you were experiencing. I noticed that the
> >altimeter was showing 6000-6500', and you had two people aboard. The engine
> >sounded like it was running near full throttle, and I suspect you were getting
>a
>
> >fuel flow problem. I noticed that Leaf Airfoils or Wicks has a higher output
> >fuel pump for Phantoms and similar aircraft that have to pump the fuel up high
>
> >and long distance. Rotax also gives a fuel pump pressure range, and it might
>be
>
> >interesting if it was measurable inflight. I run a 503 also, but in my single

> >seater at sea level and chilly Northwest temps, it doesn't run hard at all.
> >Still, I don't like hearing about loss of power issues on the same engine I'n

> >running.
> >
> > kb
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Richard
> > To: Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 5:59 PM
> > Subject: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Video of precautionary landing at El Mirage
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, on a flight with the former owner of my Thunder Gull JT2, we
>had
>
> >four momentary power losses within less than three minutes. Fearing an engine

> >seizure was in the works, I made a precautionary landing on El Mirage dry
> >lakebed.
> >
> >
> > Here's a cockpit video of the episode:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbGEcEFZ5a0
> >
> > We removed the wing and trailered the plane back to my airport. Yesterday I
> >opened the exhaust ports and a Rotax expert (factory training)saw no evidence
>of
>
> >a seizure. The engine was rebuilt 65 hours ago and looked like it just came
>out
>
> >of the shop. The plugs showed the mixture was perfect. The carb bowls were
> >pristine, as were the fuel lines and see-thru filters. I drained the tank dry,
>
> >running the four gallons of fuel remaining through a Mr. Funnel into a fuel
>can.
>
> >No water or debris was found. I poured that gas into my truck and drove home
>on
>
> >it.
> >
> > We were on the Mikuni fuel pump throughout the flight. I didn't switch on the
>
> >electric pump. It was pretty bumpy over the hills just before we reached the
> >lakebed.
> >
> > I welcome your ideas, especially if you've encountered the same thing.
> >
> > Dick
> >
>
>
> Ke
>

I now have a bubble-free fuel system. I didn't find any loose connections on my
old system. The fuel tank outlet tube has a 10 or 15 degree angle bend in it and
the hose I previously installed went beyond the bend to the top of the outlet
fitting. The tube is 1/4" OD copper tube, so the 1/4" ID fuel hose slipped over
it easily (and came off easily). I had put the clamp right below the bend. Maybe
that left a tiny pathway for air to enter. The new hose is clear SuperThane
Ester, 1/4" ID and 1/2" OD. It also slipped on easily but I didn't try to push
it over the bend. The worm gear hose clamp gets a firm grip on the larger
outside diameter. I find it easier to use clamps inside the fuel compartment
because access is a little awkward for safety wire wrapping and twisting.


I didn't know about the thick SuperThane fuel line before this. One of my hangar
neighbors offered me some. It works great inside from the fuel tank to the
Mikuni pump. But it is too thick for the radiuses required from the Mikuni to
the carbs, especially with the tubing from my HAC system also competing for
access to the carbs.

The new system is in series, through a filter, to the Facet electric pump, and
out to the Mikuni engine pump.  From the Mikuni I used blue urethane Bing
1/4x3/8 line and clamped with safety wire wrapped twice and twisted.

I rebuilt my Mikuni fuel pump but it looked fine inside, so I think that was
merely a learning exercise.

My fuel primer was not the cause. A couple of pilots said they had experienced
problems with the primer pump causing a power loss like mine when it got worn
enough that engine vacuum could pull fuel past it. I tested mine with a brake
bleeder vacuum pump and no fuel flowed at 10 lbs vacuum no matter where the
plunger was on its stroke. I didn't test beyond 10 lbs of vacuum since it was
irrelevant and I didn't want to damage the primer pump.
 Dick O'Reilly

Yeah, those things have been around for a while. When the get old, they leak, but that was in open airframes to the sun and weather. Homebuilts use them too, on their fiberglass tanks, but our tanks are so simple now. Still thinkin................ .

kb

My fellow Gullsters

The plane I was looking at was a Quick silver
The link below shows and sells the grommets and how to install them in any plastic tank.So they must work if installed as shown.
Fred

http://jbmindustries.com/ROTAX.htm

In a message dated 5/8/2011 7:26:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
gayford@golden.net writes:

I was only half kidding.
I thought a sight tube would be a good idea.
I figured there must be a way to make a liquid tight fitting in the lower
part of the tank.
I was looking at the bottom of a tank on a ultralight at the field the
other day and looked at the fittings. It was a press fit rubber like grommet
with a ridge on the tube inserted into it which expanded the grommet to make
the seal. The tank had three of them.
There must be a way. What do you think?
Fred




Please don't,
I don't have a sours right now for more of these tanks.
Happy Flying
Mark

In a message dated 5/8/2011 8:32:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
dickoreilly@yahoo.com writes:


I now have a bubble-free fuel system. I didn't find any loose connections
on my old system. The fuel tank outlet tube has a 10 or 15 degree angle bend
in it and the hose I previously installed went beyond the bend to the top
of the outlet fitting. The tube is 1/4" OD copper tube, so the 1/4" ID
fuel hose slipped over it easily (and came off easily). I had put the clamp
right below the bend. Maybe that left a tiny pathway for air to enter. The new
hose is clear SuperThane Ester, 1/4" ID and 1/2" OD. It also slipped on
easily but I didn't try to push it over the bend. The worm gear hose clamp
gets a firm grip on the larger outside diameter. I find it easier to use
clamps inside the fuel compartment because access is a little awkward for
safety wire wrapping and twisting.

I didn't know about the thick SuperThane fuel line before this. One of my
hangar neighbors offered me some. It works great inside from the fuel tank
to the Mikuni pump. But it is too thick for the radiuses required from the
Mikuni to the carbs, especially with the tubing from my HAC system also
competing for access to the carbs.

The new system is in series, through a filter, to the Facet electric pump,
and out to the Mikuni engine pump. From the Mikuni I used blue urethane
Bing 1/4x3/8 line and clamped with safety wire wrapped twice and twisted.


I rebuilt my Mikuni fuel pump but it looked fine inside, so I think that
was merely a learning exercise.


My fuel primer was not the cause. A couple of pilots said they had
experienced problems with the primer pump causing a power loss like mine when it
got worn enough that engine vacuum could pull fuel past it. I tested mine
with a brake bleeder vacuum pump and no fuel flowed at 10 lbs vacuum no
matter where the plunger was on its stroke. I didn't test beyond 10 lbs of
vacuum since it was irrelevant and I didn't want to damage the primer pump.


Dick O'Reilly





Hi Dick
If you want opportunities to meet the nabbers use worm clamps. I prefer to
use the safety wire and not be playing Russian roulette. Please use safety
wire on the fuel lines. Since your clamps are most likely the cause of
your troubles!
Happy Flying
Mark

Hi Mark
At this years "Sun and Some Fun" event I came across someone selling
a safety wire tool that you may have noticed.
It would clamp any size hose or pipe. It is a little hard to describe but hear goes.
You bend a length of safety wire into a U shape with equal lengths and then wrap it around the hose.(once or twice) The tails go under and you tie the ends to the tool.
Now you tighten the wire by turning a nut on the tool. When you have it tight you flip the tool over 180 degrees and it locks the safety wire.
Now trim off the ends so you have 1/8 inch ears and then bend the ears down to the hose. In this way you have equal pull and no sharp ends to worry about.
I got the thing home and it took a while to get the hang of it but I am now very impressed with it on gas lines and such.
I don't know, maybe I am the only one that didn't know about these tools.
Fred

In a message dated 5/9/2011 12:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
gayford@golden.net writes:

Hi Mark
At this years "Sun and Some Fun" event I came across someone selling
a safety wire tool that you may have noticed.
It would clamp any size hose or pipe. It is a little hard to describe but
hear goes.
You bend a length of safety wire into a U shape with equal lengths and
then wrap it around the hose.(once or twice) The tails go under and you tie
the ends to the tool.
Now you tighten the wire by turning a nut on the tool. When you have it
tight you flip the tool over 180 degrees and it locks the safety wire.
Now trim off the ends so you have 1/8 inch ears and then bend the ears
down to the hose. In this way you have equal pull and no sharp ends to worry
about.
I got the thing home and it took a while to get the hang of it but I am
now very impressed with it on gas lines and such.
I don't know, maybe I am the only one that didn't know about these tools.
Fred




Hi Fred
I have on of these.
But it needs space around the tube to use it so I set it aside.
Happy Flying
Mark

Fred, You still have that safety wire tool? Could you share the source?
Thanks much
Skot

Hi Skot
I got my safety wire tool from Aircraft Spruce.
Fred