Earthstar Forums

No I don't recommend taking off with full flaps except in an emergency
situation. to much drag.
Happy Flying
Mark


In a message dated 6/27/2011 1:19:10 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gayford@golden.net writes:




Thanks Mark
I will do some practice work this week end . At altitude first.
Do you ever take off with full flaps if the field is short?
Fred

--- In _Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) , thundergul@... wrote:
>
> Hi Fred
> The flaps are easy to use. just remember to be at about 50 55 when you
put
> down full flaps or it will be to hard to put them down. I like to put in
> the flaps as needed. 1/2 flaps is a normal approach but if you want to
land
> shorter full is better. I will turn to base and put down full flaps and
than
> fly approach at between 60 and 70. do not let it get below 60 and you
will
> have enough energy for a flair even with 2 people in the plane.
> You will never know the touchdown speed because you will be looking
> straight ahead at the far end of the runway. this gives you the depth
perception
> that is necessary for a good landing. on final approach make a note of
the
> angle of attack that gives you 65 mph. angle of attack is what makes the
> plane fly at any airspeed. so if you establish the right angle of attack
for
> 65 mph than you will not need to look at the airspeed again. Just look
out
> the window to the far end of the runway. the flaps will give you a
steeper
> approach but it is easy to round out in time and as you are looking at
the
> far end of the runway you will have the depth perception to allow you to
> round out at the right time, Hold it off just a few inches off the
ground for
> a perfect short field landing.You can also do slips with full flaps but
you
> will need to push the stick all the way forward as necessary as you
slip.
> try this at altitude first. I don't generally slip but it is nice to
know
> if it is necessary.
> Happy Flying
> Mark
>
>
> In a message dated 6/27/2011 6:35:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> gayford@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Mark
> As you know I am a very low time pilot. I have about 30 hours total solo
> in my JT2 (503 24 foot wing). I worry most about what I would do if the
> engine quit.
> I am always looking for a field I would come down on.
> But I worry that I will over shoot by coming in too hot. I would like to
> use the full flaps but haven't mustered up the courage yet.
> Could you take me through a landing with full flaps?
> At what point in the approach do you put the full flaps on?
> At what airspeed?
> At what airspeed do you touch down?
> Thanks
> Fred
>
> --- In __Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) , thundergul@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Kess
> > I like to land with 2 notches or full flaps. Unless it its really
gusty,
> > than probably no flaps. It seems tat the plane balloons when hit with
a
> gust
> > while you have full flaps but if you don't have flaps it pinches right
> > through it. Don't be afraid of the flaps. they really reduce the
landing
> > roll. Hear at Earthstar I always use full flaps but at big airports
1/2
> or none
> > .
> > Happy Flying
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 5/23/2011 7:49:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > kessb@ writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Oh, and cross-wind landings are not a problem with 1 notch of flaps.
The
> > Gull slips so well, that dropping the upwind wing is as easy as a
> Cessna. I
> > get the plane lined up on the extended centerline, and just slip as
> needed
> > to hold my heading. When other ultralights are hiding from the wind,
the
> > Gulls are out dancing in it!!
> >
> > kb
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: _kessb_ (mailto:kessb@)
> > To: ___Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) _
> > (mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) )
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Flaps ???
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > I mostly use no flaps for take-off, but have used one notch and less
> than
> > full power. The nose comes up faster, and as soon as it leaves the
> ground,
> > I roll in the rest of the power. I watched Mark do an extreme
departure
> in
> > my plane by yanking 2 notches of the flaps in the roll. The plane came
> off
> > really quick. On landing I use 2 notches and hold 70mph down to short
> final
> > with the 20' wing, and plan to cross the numbers at about 60mph.
> > Yes, it is easy to fall in love with the handling of these planes.
They
> > are so much not ultralights in handling, even though the weights are
> similar
> > to other fat ultralights/E-LSA's.
> >
> > kb
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: _Mike_ (mailto:mmarckel@)
> > To: ___Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) _
> > (mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) )
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 6:32 PM
> > Subject: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Flaps ???
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi everyone,I now have enough hours on my gull 2000 that I want to do
> some
> > short field work. Flaps: how much and what to expect? Max speed on
climb
> > out at each flap setting. Cross winds with flaps?
> >
> > I currently use two notches on take off and rotate about 50 mph. I
hold
> > the climb speed to not more than 75/80. Landing so far not more than
one
> > notch,@ 60/65.. 24' wing 55 hp hirth BTW.. I should say I love this
> plane and
> > just dont want to screw it up! Thanks Mike
> >
>

I use full flaps on takeoff in some situations but I prefer not too.
Generally, short field takeoff means waiting until the last moment before
takeoff to have maximum airspeed. If I am doing a standard short field
takeoff I will start with no-flaps and then introduce flaps near the end of
the runway/takeoff area. But I practice this, a lot, since I do a lot of
off airport landings.

If I have a short field and very soft (i.e., dry sand) I will put full flaps
in from the start of the takeoff run but I don't do that (I don't LAND in
these situations) where I have to clear trees close to the end of the
takeoff area. This is because full flaps on takeoff causes a greater
distance to 50-feet altitude due to flap drag and the need to gently bleed
off the flaps (otherwise you stall). For very short soft field takeoffs
(<800 ft on sand or deep grass) I generally put full flaps in and leave
them. This keeps the weight off the wheels which gains more than the drag
of the flaps looses. I leave the flaps in also so that I get consistency in
takeoff since kicking full flaps in at the exact right time takes a lot of
practice. Especially if you are bouncing all over the place during takeoff.

So, none of this is something a low-time pilot should be doing. If you
don't do things right you will stall your aircraft on takeoff 10 feet off
the ground. Ouch. I've had times where I bleed the flaps off too fast and
got a stall warning. So you got to be careful. this type of flying also
means you should have a stall warning system in place since you will be
often flying close to stall close to the ground with a lot of distractions
making it hard to concentrate.

I try not to need to take off in < 800 ft in off airport conditions. I try
really really hard. That is pushing your luck. I try to stay with strips
or landing areas 800-1000+ ft if at all possible. On pavement I can get my
aircraft off the ground in about 150-200 ft. Soft field takeoffs can double
to quadruple that distance.

So as Mark says, full flaps in emergencies only.

Oh yes, I also have an 85 hp engine on my aircraft, so I have more power
than most of you. it makes a difference since I can climb with full flaps.

Oh yes, 2: I don't land/takeoff in these sorts of strips until I have a
month or two of practice at the beginning of a flying year.

Oh yes, 3: pay attention to your heel brakes. It is very easy to be
pushing on them when taking off. This includes pushing on them towards the
top but still below the rotation point for the brake pedals. I try to keep
my feet towards the outside of the rudder pedals with my heels well off the
brakes. On short field takeoffs it is part of my checklist so that I remind
myself. It can make a real difference.



_____

From: Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thundergul@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 14:00
To: Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Re: Flaps ???





No I don't recommend taking off with full flaps except in an emergency
situation. to much drag.
Happy Flying
Mark

In a message dated 6/27/2011 1:19:10 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gayford@golden.net writes:



Thanks Mark
I will do some practice work this week end . At altitude first.
Do you ever take off with full flaps if the field is short?
Fred

--- In Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> , thundergul@... wrote:
>
> Hi Fred
> The flaps are easy to use. just remember to be at about 50 55 when you put

> down full flaps or it will be to hard to put them down. I like to put in
> the flaps as needed. 1/2 flaps is a normal approach but if you want to
land
> shorter full is better. I will turn to base and put down full flaps and
than
> fly approach at between 60 and 70. do not let it get below 60 and you will

> have enough energy for a flair even with 2 people in the plane.
> You will never know the touchdown speed because you will be looking
> straight ahead at the far end of the runway. this gives you the depth
perception
> that is necessary for a good landing. on final approach make a note of the

> angle of attack that gives you 65 mph. angle of attack is what makes the
> plane fly at any airspeed. so if you establish the right angle of attack
for
> 65 mph than you will not need to look at the airspeed again. Just look out

> the window to the far end of the runway. the flaps will give you a steeper

> approach but it is easy to round out in time and as you are looking at the

> far end of the runway you will have the depth perception to allow you to
> round out at the right time, Hold it off just a few inches off the ground
for
> a perfect short field landing.You can also do slips with full flaps but
you
> will need to push the stick all the way forward as necessary as you slip.
> try this at altitude first. I don't generally slip but it is nice to know
> if it is necessary.
> Happy Flying
> Mark
>
>
> In a message dated 6/27/2011 6:35:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> gayford@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Mark
> As you know I am a very low time pilot. I have about 30 hours total solo
> in my JT2 (503 24 foot wing). I worry most about what I would do if the
> engine quit.
> I am always looking for a field I would come down on.
> But I worry that I will over shoot by coming in too hot. I would like to
> use the full flaps but haven't mustered up the courage yet.
> Could you take me through a landing with full flaps?
> At what point in the approach do you put the full flaps on?
> At what airspeed?
> At what airspeed do you touch down?
> Thanks
> Fred
>
> --- In _Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> _
> (mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> ) , thundergul@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Kess
> > I like to land with 2 notches or full flaps. Unless it its really gusty,

> > than probably no flaps. It seems tat the plane balloons when hit with a
> gust
> > while you have full flaps but if you don't have flaps it pinches right
> > through it. Don't be afraid of the flaps. they really reduce the landing

> > roll. Hear at Earthstar I always use full flaps but at big airports 1/2
> or none
> > .
> > Happy Flying
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 5/23/2011 7:49:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > kessb@ writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Oh, and cross-wind landings are not a problem with 1 notch of flaps. The

> > Gull slips so well, that dropping the upwind wing is as easy as a
> Cessna. I
> > get the plane lined up on the extended centerline, and just slip as
> needed
> > to hold my heading. When other ultralights are hiding from the wind, the

> > Gulls are out dancing in it!!
> >
> > kb
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: _kessb_ (mailto:kessb@)
> > To: __Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> _
> (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> ) _
> > (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> _
> (mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> ) )
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Flaps ???
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > I mostly use no flaps for take-off, but have used one notch and less
> than
> > full power. The nose comes up faster, and as soon as it leaves the
> ground,
> > I roll in the rest of the power. I watched Mark do an extreme departure
> in
> > my plane by yanking 2 notches of the flaps in the roll. The plane came
> off
> > really quick. On landing I use 2 notches and hold 70mph down to short
> final
> > with the 20' wing, and plan to cross the numbers at about 60mph.
> > Yes, it is easy to fall in love with the handling of these planes. They
> > are so much not ultralights in handling, even though the weights are
> similar
> > to other fat ultralights/E-LSA's.
> >
> > kb
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: _Mike_ (mailto:mmarckel@)
> > To: __Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> _
> (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> ) _
> > (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> _
> (mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft%40yahoogroups.com> ) )
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 6:32 PM
> > Subject: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Flaps ???
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi everyone,I now have enough hours on my gull 2000 that I want to do
> some
> > short field work. Flaps: how much and what to expect? Max speed on climb

> > out at each flap setting. Cross winds with flaps?
> >
> > I currently use two notches on take off and rotate about 50 mph. I hold
> > the climb speed to not more than 75/80. Landing so far not more than one

> > notch,@ 60/65.. 24' wing 55 hp hirth BTW.. I should say I love this
> plane and
> > just dont want to screw it up! Thanks Mike
> >
>




_____

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_____

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1513/3729 - Release Date: 06/27/11

Thanks Alan
What type of stall warning system do you have?
Fred

Hi Mark
Well I did some flap work this weekend.
I practiced at altitude as you suggested. I reduced power pulled back on the stick until I reached 50 mph switched hands and pulled the flap lever down with my right hand and it wasn't that hard to pull at all.
So I flew around a while to get used to it. I tried a stall with full flaps it was somewhere below 40mph.
Yes I was nervous as I did my approach because I had no idea what to expect at flare. So in I came at your recommended 60-65 mph and I flared. It was great, totally predictable, It was the softest gentlest landing I have ever made!
I did 4 more full flap landings. I think I will do this for every landing.
I do have a question. Will there be a problem landing with full flaps in a strong cross wind?
Thanks
Fred

Hi Fred
Cool! I don't use full flaps in strong gusty cross winds because a gust
will cause the plane to balloon with flaps but with out flaps the plane just
penetrates the gust'
Happy Flying,
Mark


In a message dated 7/4/2011 8:16:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gayford@golden.net writes:




Hi Mark
Well I did some flap work this weekend.
I practiced at altitude as you suggested. I reduced power pulled back on
the stick until I reached 50 mph switched hands and pulled the flap lever
down with my right hand and it wasn't that hard to pull at all.
So I flew around a while to get used to it. I tried a stall with full
flaps it was somewhere below 40mph.
Yes I was nervous as I did my approach because I had no idea what to
expect at flare. So in I came at your recommended 60-65 mph and I flared. It was
great, totally predictable, It was the softest gentlest landing I have
ever made!
I did 4 more full flap landings. I think I will do this for every landing.
I do have a question. Will there be a problem landing with full flaps in a
strong cross wind?
Thanks
Fred

--- In _Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) , thundergul@... wrote:
>
> Hi Fred
> The flaps are easy to use. just remember to be at about 50 55 when you
put
> down full flaps or it will be to hard to put them down. I like to put in
> the flaps as needed. 1/2 flaps is a normal approach but if you want to
land
> shorter full is better. I will turn to base and put down full flaps and
than
> fly approach at between 60 and 70. do not let it get below 60 and you
will
> have enough energy for a flair even with 2 people in the plane.
> You will never know the touchdown speed because you will be looking
> straight ahead at the far end of the runway. this gives you the depth
perception
> that is necessary for a good landing. on final approach make a note of
the
> angle of attack that gives you 65 mph. angle of attack is what makes the
> plane fly at any airspeed. so if you establish the right angle of attack
for
> 65 mph than you will not need to look at the airspeed again. Just look
out
> the window to the far end of the runway. the flaps will give you a
steeper
> approach but it is easy to round out in time and as you are looking at
the
> far end of the runway you will have the depth perception to allow you to
> round out at the right time, Hold it off just a few inches off the
ground for
> a perfect short field landing.You can also do slips with full flaps but
you
> will need to push the stick all the way forward as necessary as you
slip.
> try this at altitude first. I don't generally slip but it is nice to
know
> if it is necessary.
> Happy Flying
> Mark
>
>
> In a message dated 6/27/2011 6:35:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> gayford@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Mark
> As you know I am a very low time pilot. I have about 30 hours total solo
> in my JT2 (503 24 foot wing). I worry most about what I would do if the
> engine quit.
> I am always looking for a field I would come down on.
> But I worry that I will over shoot by coming in too hot. I would like to
> use the full flaps but haven't mustered up the courage yet.
> Could you take me through a landing with full flaps?
> At what point in the approach do you put the full flaps on?
> At what airspeed?
> At what airspeed do you touch down?
> Thanks
> Fred
>
> --- In __Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) , thundergul@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Kess
> > I like to land with 2 notches or full flaps. Unless it its really
gusty,
> > than probably no flaps. It seems tat the plane balloons when hit with
a
> gust
> > while you have full flaps but if you don't have flaps it pinches right
> > through it. Don't be afraid of the flaps. they really reduce the
landing
> > roll. Hear at Earthstar I always use full flaps but at big airports
1/2
> or none
> > .
> > Happy Flying
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 5/23/2011 7:49:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > kessb@ writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Oh, and cross-wind landings are not a problem with 1 notch of flaps.
The
> > Gull slips so well, that dropping the upwind wing is as easy as a
> Cessna. I
> > get the plane lined up on the extended centerline, and just slip as
> needed
> > to hold my heading. When other ultralights are hiding from the wind,
the
> > Gulls are out dancing in it!!
> >
> > kb
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: _kessb_ (mailto:kessb@)
> > To: ___Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) _
> > (mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) )
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Flaps ???
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > I mostly use no flaps for take-off, but have used one notch and less
> than
> > full power. The nose comes up faster, and as soon as it leaves the
> ground,
> > I roll in the rest of the power. I watched Mark do an extreme
departure
> in
> > my plane by yanking 2 notches of the flaps in the roll. The plane came
> off
> > really quick. On landing I use 2 notches and hold 70mph down to short
> final
> > with the 20' wing, and plan to cross the numbers at about 60mph.
> > Yes, it is easy to fall in love with the handling of these planes.
They
> > are so much not ultralights in handling, even though the weights are
> similar
> > to other fat ultralights/E-LSA's.
> >
> > kb
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: _Mike_ (mailto:mmarckel@)
> > To: ___Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) _
> > (mailto:__Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) _
> (mailto:_Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:Earthstar_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com) ) )
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 6:32 PM
> > Subject: [Earthstar_Aircraft] Flaps ???
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi everyone,I now have enough hours on my gull 2000 that I want to do
> some
> > short field work. Flaps: how much and what to expect? Max speed on
climb
> > out at each flap setting. Cross winds with flaps?
> >
> > I currently use two notches on take off and rotate about 50 mph. I
hold
> > the climb speed to not more than 75/80. Landing so far not more than
one
> > notch,@ 60/65.. 24' wing 55 hp hirth BTW.. I should say I love this
> plane and
> > just dont want to screw it up! Thanks Mike
> >
>