With two aboard you should be able to simulate the power line obstacle at a safe location where there aren't any obstructions. Instructor can concentrate on the altitude while you fly a simulated landing approach. Instructor can tell you to go around at any time and you do the real go around from the simulated approach while instructor determines if you hit the simulated power lines. You can practice this many times until doing a go around becomes second nature to you and instructor believes that you can safely operate on the real runway.
The trick in the real world is to do a go around at the first hint of trouble with the approach. If the approach isn't perfect go around immediately. Pilots who do this live long and happy lives at the expense of flying a few extra miles and using a little more gas than those who don't. Practice this and you get to the point that nearly every approach is perfect. Never ever listen to your inner voice if it tries to tell you that you can save a bad approach or a bad landing. Go around. Pretty soon that bad inner voice will get the message and shut up.
Dick O'Reilly
Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
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rmm_guam
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Thanks Dick O'Reilly and Riley ...
Lacking an alternative field is part of the problem. That leaves simulation only at altitude. Certainly this should be done and multiple times. Your description of the timing is spot-on. Moving on groundtrack at 88 feet per second eats up runway very fast. Hence, my point that this procedure needs to deliver sufficient climb in about 10 seconds. Yes, it is possible to go under the lines, but that is, I believe, what most would consider a hot-dog solution. I admit that I also have certainly had this thought.
I am sure Mark B, master of the Odyssey, is following this thread. I talked to Mark about the field slope but did not mention the power line issue. Mark gave me a climb range with 0 flaps of 500 to 700fpm. Assuming, at midfield, the transition to full power and no flaps was complete, this gives 85 to 115 feet of climb in 10 seconds or 1,000 feet of ground track. Timely decision making, as Dick mentions, is absolutely critical.
This is why it would be good to have some real world Odyssey flyers with a level field to do some Go Arounds and let me know what climb is achieved with two on board. With what I know now, the climb does not look sufficient. Let's see what Skot W and John Karevoll might offer, or others. Greg Carter may also come online soon. Thanks
RMM
Lacking an alternative field is part of the problem. That leaves simulation only at altitude. Certainly this should be done and multiple times. Your description of the timing is spot-on. Moving on groundtrack at 88 feet per second eats up runway very fast. Hence, my point that this procedure needs to deliver sufficient climb in about 10 seconds. Yes, it is possible to go under the lines, but that is, I believe, what most would consider a hot-dog solution. I admit that I also have certainly had this thought.
I am sure Mark B, master of the Odyssey, is following this thread. I talked to Mark about the field slope but did not mention the power line issue. Mark gave me a climb range with 0 flaps of 500 to 700fpm. Assuming, at midfield, the transition to full power and no flaps was complete, this gives 85 to 115 feet of climb in 10 seconds or 1,000 feet of ground track. Timely decision making, as Dick mentions, is absolutely critical.
This is why it would be good to have some real world Odyssey flyers with a level field to do some Go Arounds and let me know what climb is achieved with two on board. With what I know now, the climb does not look sufficient. Let's see what Skot W and John Karevoll might offer, or others. Greg Carter may also come online soon. Thanks
RMM
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mark_drz
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Hello all. This discussion is great, but I have to ask: if the power lines will be gone soon, is it worth it to push things?
Mark Drzymkowski
Mark Drzymkowski
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rmm_guam
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Hi Mark..
If all this were to be resolved "soon" I would not have bothered to initiate this discussion. I am unsure about the time frame for the poles and power lines to be moved. A new house will be built but the time frame could be quite lengthy. I lack an alternative field. If the Odyssey can climb out safely, I would like to know that and start flying sooner. No hurry-up-itis at work here. If necessary, I will practice high speed taxis over and over and over. Lift off, settle down on the field over and over. This is also good training.
Hope someone will take their Odyssey to the air with 1,000# gross weight and do some go around flight tests.
It will be helpful for us to document these performance figures. Every airplane needs a detailed POH. No intention to say that every Odyssey flies exactly the same. But with equal weight and same engine, same speeds, same flap settings --- the performance should be quite consistent. That is just physics applied to a well-designed aircraft.
Thanks
RMM
If all this were to be resolved "soon" I would not have bothered to initiate this discussion. I am unsure about the time frame for the poles and power lines to be moved. A new house will be built but the time frame could be quite lengthy. I lack an alternative field. If the Odyssey can climb out safely, I would like to know that and start flying sooner. No hurry-up-itis at work here. If necessary, I will practice high speed taxis over and over and over. Lift off, settle down on the field over and over. This is also good training.
Hope someone will take their Odyssey to the air with 1,000# gross weight and do some go around flight tests.
It will be helpful for us to document these performance figures. Every airplane needs a detailed POH. No intention to say that every Odyssey flies exactly the same. But with equal weight and same engine, same speeds, same flap settings --- the performance should be quite consistent. That is just physics applied to a well-designed aircraft.
Thanks
RMM
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dickoreilly
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Another way to look at it is that go-arounds are rarely necessary and when they are you know it well before you touch down. You know when you are at least 100 yards out if you are going to touch down where you need to touch down. If not, go around. That means that it is not a last second procedure. You'll still be 30-40 feet high when you know you need to go around so the climb gradient isn't really an issue. You already have flying airspeed. You just need to give it full throttle, raise the nose gently to stop the descent and begin a gentle climb as you increase airspeed. You can do it safely with two notches of flaps and worry about raising the flaps after you have established a proper climb and cleared the power lines.
A word about flaps - two notches is all you need for landing. Yes you can land slower and steeper with three or four notches, but that is an advanced manuever and unnecessary in your early learning period. I understand the flaps are easier to use in the Odyssey than the JT2. They share the same wing but have different fuselages. In the JT2 using one or two notches is easy, but adding a third or fourth requires speeds below 60 mph and a strong arm. I seldom used more than two notches operating off a sandy-dirt runway 2000 ft long. I never used more than half the runway and mostly needed no more than 500-600 ft. I also often landed and took off from a friend's narrow 1000 ft runway and always had plenty of runway even though I usually landed long because the runway was at the base of a hill and I seldom flew the approach as low as I should have.
If you don't decide to go around until you are within a couple feet of the ground it is too late. You should finish the landing and steer the plane and slow it as much as possible before you collide with anything solid. You may damage the plane but you won't be hurt. The same can't be said for attempting a go around too late.
I did a go around only once in my JT2. The cross wind was strong and very gusty and I was going too fast and too erratic. I once had to abort a takeoff. I had added some weight in the nose in the mistaken notion that it would make the plane fly better. When I reached my normal lift off point and the JT2 showed no inclination to fly, I pulled the engine to idle and hit the brakes. Worked fine.
Many years ago in a rented Cessna Cardinal I got into a porpoising situation on landing. That model was notorious for that possibility. After the second bounce I firewalled the throttle, went around and made a very nice normal landing. Of course I made sure I got my approach speed properly slowed on that second approach.
The point of all this is that I think you are obsessing over a theoretical problem that isn't really there. The characteristics of your airport demand that you make special rules to accommodate those characteristics. Your special rule is that you decide 100 yards out from the approach end of the runway whether you will be able to land within the first 100 yards of runway. If in doubt, go around. You'll probably do a lot of go arounds as you learn how to safely use that airport. Those go arounds will be easy and safe.
Dick O'Reilly
A word about flaps - two notches is all you need for landing. Yes you can land slower and steeper with three or four notches, but that is an advanced manuever and unnecessary in your early learning period. I understand the flaps are easier to use in the Odyssey than the JT2. They share the same wing but have different fuselages. In the JT2 using one or two notches is easy, but adding a third or fourth requires speeds below 60 mph and a strong arm. I seldom used more than two notches operating off a sandy-dirt runway 2000 ft long. I never used more than half the runway and mostly needed no more than 500-600 ft. I also often landed and took off from a friend's narrow 1000 ft runway and always had plenty of runway even though I usually landed long because the runway was at the base of a hill and I seldom flew the approach as low as I should have.
If you don't decide to go around until you are within a couple feet of the ground it is too late. You should finish the landing and steer the plane and slow it as much as possible before you collide with anything solid. You may damage the plane but you won't be hurt. The same can't be said for attempting a go around too late.
I did a go around only once in my JT2. The cross wind was strong and very gusty and I was going too fast and too erratic. I once had to abort a takeoff. I had added some weight in the nose in the mistaken notion that it would make the plane fly better. When I reached my normal lift off point and the JT2 showed no inclination to fly, I pulled the engine to idle and hit the brakes. Worked fine.
Many years ago in a rented Cessna Cardinal I got into a porpoising situation on landing. That model was notorious for that possibility. After the second bounce I firewalled the throttle, went around and made a very nice normal landing. Of course I made sure I got my approach speed properly slowed on that second approach.
The point of all this is that I think you are obsessing over a theoretical problem that isn't really there. The characteristics of your airport demand that you make special rules to accommodate those characteristics. Your special rule is that you decide 100 yards out from the approach end of the runway whether you will be able to land within the first 100 yards of runway. If in doubt, go around. You'll probably do a lot of go arounds as you learn how to safely use that airport. Those go arounds will be easy and safe.
Dick O'Reilly
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rmm_guam
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Hello Dick O'Reilley...
Your thinking matches the comments made by the General Manager of my flight school who landed a Cessna 172 on this field. He commits to landing long before arriving at the threshold. I met this evening with my new CFI and the property owner. Tomorrow I can discuss this some more with the GM - who in fact was the one who initially raised the go-around issue with me. The property owner expects the power lines to be re-located in six to eight months. My new CFI liked the field and is excited to fly the Odyssey. He just got his rating for water/sea operations in a pusher type amphibian airplane. Another plus for understanding the Odyssey.
Will keep you all up to date. Thanks again, especially for those who took so much time to write at length all with important ideas. Special thanks to Dick O'Reilly. Really appreciated.
RMM
Your thinking matches the comments made by the General Manager of my flight school who landed a Cessna 172 on this field. He commits to landing long before arriving at the threshold. I met this evening with my new CFI and the property owner. Tomorrow I can discuss this some more with the GM - who in fact was the one who initially raised the go-around issue with me. The property owner expects the power lines to be re-located in six to eight months. My new CFI liked the field and is excited to fly the Odyssey. He just got his rating for water/sea operations in a pusher type amphibian airplane. Another plus for understanding the Odyssey.
Will keep you all up to date. Thanks again, especially for those who took so much time to write at length all with important ideas. Special thanks to Dick O'Reilly. Really appreciated.
RMM
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blaswichk
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Seems to me that if a C-172 can get in safely, any of our planes can. And about the tree’s on the approach end, I would practice and master slips to kill excess altitude once clear of the wires, pull the power back and head for the runway. I also would expect the winds to shift at times so the approaches might be from the opposite direction. If a C-172 can go around, so can you. I also agree with you in using the 980 lbs, because as we all know extra weight grows easily when carrying other people and stuff, and you never know when you might have to go around. Good luck!
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earthstaraircraft
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
Hi, from Mark,
a 172 can not operate from my field but odyssey is no problem
Sent from my iPhone
a 172 can not operate from my field but odyssey is no problem
Sent from my iPhone
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mark_drz
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
I hear you. I was just playing the voice of caution. Even if it was capable, margin is good, and more margin is better.
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rahulchoudhary73
Re: Odyssey: Go Around Procedure / Climb Gradient
(yet to be pilot) what is firewalling a throttle? like stepping on the gas?
porpoising sounds interesting. doves here do it all the time prior to light windy landings/perchings. bit like a vertical sine wave right, even dolphins do it. why is it not good for planing? sometimes I think when Mark does his full flap steep landing, what he really does in the last few feet prior to landing, looks like a half-porpoise to me, as in the nose goes up a bit but the plane does'nt really go up that much, just levals out usually for a tiptoe landing (unless a gust sprang up right then at the slow speeds..)
porpoising sounds interesting. doves here do it all the time prior to light windy landings/perchings. bit like a vertical sine wave right, even dolphins do it. why is it not good for planing? sometimes I think when Mark does his full flap steep landing, what he really does in the last few feet prior to landing, looks like a half-porpoise to me, as in the nose goes up a bit but the plane does'nt really go up that much, just levals out usually for a tiptoe landing (unless a gust sprang up right then at the slow speeds..)